Boiling over about warming up one's Car

General
21

You've gotten a lot of value out of that purchase. 4.2c a mile.

Were there any options in other trim levels you wished you'd gotten? If you'd had them for 330,000 miles, you would have gotten good use out of them.

Presumably you've done all your own maintenance. Is the engine and transmission original?

I'm convinced that many repairs or uneconomical to fix issues are actually a result of poor or incorrect maintenance. Not changing fluids often enough. People using wrong fluids for top ups or exchanges. Ignoring mechanical issues that make other things worse.

I was running into so much incompetence that I ended up researching everything myself in order to check work was done properly or to understand things that shops were unable to advise me on. Then I began to think I may as well do more and more things myself.

The smog test and tires are pretty much the only time that somebody else touches our cars now when it comes to routine maintenance and repairs but there are several things that are challenging, especially without a lift.

22

The VP model came with A/T and A/C, and the only thing I really would have appreciated is power windows, but not necessary.

Engine and Trans are original. Apart from routine maintenance stuff( filters, dist.cap/rotor, plugs, oil changes, drive belts,etc.), I have replaced the timing belt and balancer belt at 128,000 mi., which looked pristine when I did so, and so I now have about 200,000 on the 2nd set of belts. I've only had to install a new alternator, one new radiator hose, a few bulbs, two brake discs and a brake caliper as well as more than a few sets of brake shoes, and the front bumper cover that was smashed by a coyote. Oh, and I have adjusted the valves a few times. It's been the anti-lemon car.

Incompetence: I believe the auto repair industry is very corrupt, and finding an honest mechanic is one of the best things a person can do to save money. If one is inclined, one can usually download to CD or USB for free or $5 or so the factory maintenance manual for one's vehicle, which can be quite helpful. Having no access to a hydraulic lift is a pain, but I have gotten by with a few small hydraulic jacks and jackstands for many years, yet now I'm so old that getting out from under the car is such that I look like a tortoise emerging from under a rock.

I do think people can do many basic tasks on their cars and save a surprising amount of money, for, although newer cars are much more complex than older cars, they actually require very little maintenance compared to the neanderthals that preceded them.

23

You didn't mention any suspension work. My limited experience is that Japanese suspensions are very robust and long lasting compared to American and German. Have you done any work there?

Yes before you get to the honest but incompetent mechanics, you have to avoid the corrupt and dishonest ones, of which there are plenty. Then hopefully you find an honest and competent one.

Re maintenance manuals, check your county library system. I registered for online access and have access to the Chilton Library.

Yes maintenance requirements have been steadily reducing which puts more pressure on dealers and other service providers to oversell. While there are certain things the average person could do at home, there are some things becoming more difficult to diy. On one of my cars, I periodically change half the transmission fluid through the dipstick tube. I picked up the transmission fluid on clearance for $1 a quart so the change costs me a few $ and 30 minutes of time instead of $200 plus the time to go to a shop who will likely do it wrong (they get the refill level wrong). On the other car, there is no dipstick tube and special equipment is required to refill through the transmission pan while the vehicle is perfectly level, running and at a particular temperature. The dealer charges about $500 for that one and I had to convince them that since my transmission had passed a particular serial number, the other half of the fluid that is in the torque converter was also removable, and all they needed to do was check for the bolt, instead of assuming that it wasn't possible because all the transmissions they'd seen before had inexplicably been manufactured without the ability to drain the torque converter.

24

I haven't had any suspension problems---no alignments or steering problems whatsoever.

In addition to manuals, some online forums for one's specific car can be useful iy you can find people who know their stuff.

A/T fluid changes seem to vary crazily from car to car. As I understand it, most cars no long have Transmission filters, which is the case with my 2002 accord that only has a magnetized drain plug. Not sure about your situation, but only about two quarts of fluid drain from and need to be replaced to be considered a fluid change on my 16 old car, though the trans and torque converter combined actually hold 6 quarts. Thus a complete flush of the transmission requires that one drain and add two quarts, drive the car, drain and add two quarts, drive the car, then drain and add two courts, and if you're not nuts, you're done. My car does have a dipstick, and it must be on level ground and running at normal operating temperature to properly check the level. "Genuine" Honda transmission fluid used to cost a small fortune at, I believe, $6,$7 a quart. So your $1 a court deal was a steal. I've been using a generic for "all" foreign vehicles fluid because the car is old and not worth the expensive stuff any longer.

25

330k miles and no suspension issues is a testament to the Japanese. I've had work done before 40k miles, thankfully under warranty.

A transmission holding 6 quarts and requiring in effect a partial change but lasting 330k miles is also a testament to the Japanese. Mine is over 13 quarts and requires a full exchange (through cooler lines) every 30k miles. I rustled up a spreadsheet and figured that a half change every 10,000 miles was equivalent so I do that through the dipstick instead.

The genuine Honda fluid at $6 or $7 is a little more than most ATFs on the shelves in the auto parts stores and of course the limited range in Walmart is very good value for money. I don't know if the generic one you're using is Supertech but that is a fine value for money choice. The OEM fluid I had to pay for at the dealer was over $20 a quart which was all the more galling because I could source the equivalent for about $5 a quart and it isn't even full synthetic. So yeah, the $500+ they charged for that job had a lot of profit in it!

26

13 quarts--wow. I'm not up to speed on most transmissions. I don't know if it's still the case, but I have three Honda vehicles that did not call for any maintenance, apart from oil&filter changes until they reached about 100,000 miles, and I assumed this to be the case with most other major Japanese vehicles. I do use the Supertech fluids from Walmart which certainly are a money saver. Yes, the dealer markup on fluids, etc., is ludicrous. You're right, as the cars get better and need little maintenance, the dealers get creative.

27

I was once told by somebody who worked on motor oil development with Mobil, Castrol, Mercedes and the like, that because Africa was a big market for Toyota and Honda, by necessity they needed to be able to run them on the cheapest conventional oil available. No doubt, transmissions needed to be similarly low maintenance. By far the most stringent motor oil specs are European / German, with American OEM specs especially dexos more demanding than the Japanese who still work with the minimum although they are the ones pushing the thinner oils, starting with 0w20 and not 0w16 and below.

28

How many folks have any REAL clues about lubricity vs. viscosity vs. wear ??
And then, what about gas washing from excess fuel in cold starts; along with high idling due to cold vs. putting a load on the engine at that time ??

Most folks with cars know just enough to get in, turn the key, and zoom off UNLESS they are wimpy about their own cold exposure & thus prefer to have a warm car to get into.

Any article that claims authority & says that very few cars have engine failures is fulla baloney; our mechanic basically makes a whole 2nd salary obtaining clean cars with burned up engines, putting in a good, fully serviced engine & selling those at a profit.

Is this just as true in much warmer climate areas ?? Probably less of it...and why:
The lubricating oil flows more freely when it is warmer, especially when the owner gets it changed maybe once a year whether it needs it, or not (yuk, yuk, yuk)((Worn out engine oil is much thinner...)).

Right now - this minute - here - it is around -16°F with a wind chill as low as -37.
The adjoining unit had a pipe burst earlier WITH plenty of heat running and we'll have no running water here until that gets fixed - so we know just a wee bit about living with real winter conditions.

Our cars have ~150,000 and 220,000 miles on them - and they get warmed up until their idles come down;
PERIOD.

They also get regular engine oil changes & other regular maintenance as needed.
Also, right now both have battery conditioners connected so as to have the best chances of starting at all after such a nice, chilly overnight.

The mis- and dis- information about this topic provides a terrific derailment to the ignorance of the sheer waste imposed by folks choosing to drive ever-larger, wasteful monster-sized vehicles, but even better still...

Most folks know NOTHING about the relationships between huge fuel wastage in the steam making processes of power generation, industrial and commercial boiler uses and especially trans-oceanic shipping.
(I'll leave jet planes & the milly-tarry out of this as those mentions would likely start a flame-fest...)

Folks think their 'energy' usage at home & in their cars is a big deal, so they freak out with the propaganda over car engine warm-ups, but in truth all the small usages do not add up to a drop in the bucket compared to just a smallish hospital that goes through 10,000 - 20,000 gallons of bunker 6 oil PER WEEK, and $50,000 - $100,000 in electricity besides.

And yes - I do know of such things as one who worked for many years as a licensed power plant engineer in industry, commerce and at hospitals as I gained in qualifications & moved up that career ladder.

A suggestion:
If your local DHS unit has not intervened, contact your biggest local electric utility & request to be included in their next power station tour.
See how many gigantic, ancient boilers are sitting there with their house-sized burners blasting, making ~1000 PSI superheated steam vs. how many turbines are being powered in the daytime.
Also - make a point to ask what is done to DISPOSE of the over 500 PSI waste steam after its one trip through the turbine.

Generally the answers look as follows:
3 boilers running - 2 'idling' hot & ready for peak hours 2-3 times daily, one turbine spinning using the 1200+ PSI steam from the one online boiler - and if the local wildlife is very fortunate, the plant is not boiling a local body of water to dispose of that pesky excess steam.

Big cities used to be powered by such excess steam - but most have stopped it, and why ??
The billing of users was too problematic - even though the needed infrastructure remained whole and it was a great way to heat large buildings in a city with a waste product.

TMI yet ?? Most likely. No apology offered, or forthcoming.

Last irritating mention for this reply:
Most folks also have no idea where their municipally supplied drinking water comes from, what is in it, or added to it - nor that the supplier must publish a yearly quality report for anyone to see.
If folks knew or cared to know - the sales of reverse osmosis water systems would go through the roof !!!

29

For some folks the big question is not whether one should or should not warm up their cars before driving away, but how to get into their cars to begin with.

30

ferocious jr is currently cruising around in a 90 accord it has 412,9xx miles on it. he had worked all summer doing a crap job ( who would be willing to weed flower fields for $6 an hour). he bought it 2 years ago for $200 from a guy on CL who just wanted it gone outta his field. at the time it was black with a red door. according to the CL guy the door controls stopped working and instead of repairing them he just junk yarded a new door with working controls and never got around to painting the door. ferocious jr was ecstatic with his new purchase and brought it home and did an oil, belt and hose change as well as put on new brakes. last fall there was an unfortunate incident with a deer which required a new to him tan colored bumper that was picked up at the junk yard for $40 and a new headlight. the car is not without dings, paint issues or the common rust for our area. it even has come to the rescue the day when my 2012 89xxx mile chevy died for the last time on the side of highway and was the only mode of transport for 3 weeks while new car shopping. i would probably never allow a cross country trip to happen in it, but it starts, goes and gets Jr to school, work and the occasional weekend movie. we dont live in an inspection state so as long as he has legal tags and insurance on it theres really no telling how long it will go. the body may rust off before the engine and transmission die. it is not without its faults though. all safety items work however it was made long before airbags, back up cameras and anti lock brakes were standard. she has heat but no a/c. when shes cold she puts alot of fumes in the air. it takes her quite a bit to warm up. besides the one time of operator error, yes in the 90's headlights actually needed to be turned off, that required a set of jumper cables, its never left him anywhere stranded. there are 5 mechanic's in the family. 2 are diesel/ heavy machine. 1 also loves to tinker in small engine, tinker because theyd never go back to school for it but they are almost as good if not better than the small engine repair in town. this car has defied all of their odds ( and yes they have a bet going) its been ingrained in our systems to warm up the car when its cold, to religiously change filters and fluids at the front of the mile suggestions, not the back end and how to feel out the car, changes in idle, changes in noise, changes to lights, and watch for CEL's. with continued proper maintenance this car may be seeing the high 400's soon.

31

I believe your son's Accord has earned the moniker: "Old Betsy"

32

for whatever reason Jr calls it Barry Allen. it certainly does not go as fast as electricity. it may be the red door it may be the fact that one min its there and the next hes off to school or work so it never stays in one place very long.

btw the guy in your video was smart he left his truck open (LOL) unlike his neighbor who only left up his wiper blades, hell be able to enter his car through the trunk he may not get very far though since the waters probably up in the seats. i feel horrible for those on the east coast who will need to wait a while for it to melt.

33

ET Re part of your post
"Most folks know NOTHING about the relationships between huge fuel wastage in the steam making processes of power generation, industrial and commercial boiler uses and especially trans-oceanic shipping.
(I'll leave jet planes & the milly-tarry out of this as those mentions would likely start a flame-fest...)

Folks think their 'energy' usage at home & in their cars is a big deal, so they freak out with the propaganda over car engine warm-ups, but in truth all the small usages do not add up to a drop in the bucket compared to just a smallish hospital that goes through 10,000 - 20,000 gallons of bunker 6 oil PER WEEK, and $50,000 - $100,000 in electricity besides.

And yes - I do know of such things as one who worked for many years as a licensed power plant engineer in industry, commerce and at hospitals as I gained in qualifications & moved up that career ladder. Power plants and inefficient transmission of generated power waste a huge amount of energy.
I believe that in 2008 the figure was something like 80% of all energy generated by power plants did not make it to the end user."

als Reply to part of ET post quoted above (post edited for clarity:( )
Power plants and inefficient transmission of generated power waste a huge amount of energy.
I believe that in 2008 the figure was something like 80% of all energy generated by power plants did not make it to the end user."

The main issue of course, is that there is no way to store power for future use .
Power plants have to be generating ( whether needed or not)to meet possible future demand, Hydroelectric facilities are able to ramp up faster to meet demand but of course that is predicated upon sufficient water being available to meet present and future demands
We fret about the waste of warming up our vehicles, while ignoring the huge waste of our public utilities every day."

34

All this talk about frugality and cars reminds me of a strange instance when I treated myself and purchased a new Lexus.

I moved to a job which required me to work out of the office. I had been working from home so we were a one car household because our frugality said there was no need for a second car.

But my job was senior enough for a Lexus to be appropriate and I knew I was going to be working hard so a comfortable commute would come in handy. I had always told myself I would get a Lexus when my financial situation meant it would be a similar impact as buying a more modest car. One of those factors being to buy it in cash.

Nonetheless, I seek value for money so looked at different models, wanted to understand what I was getting if I went from one model to the next or from one trim level to the next. And of course, how did it compare to buying a Toyota.

Indeed, the Toyotas were looking very good at the time, including the hybrids. But overall, for image, rear wheel drive, luxury, features, I came down on the side of the Lexus.

A few days after being at work with it, I took a co-worker out in it. I was on friendly terms with her outside of work as well. A few months later, she purchased a Toyota hybrid which I congratulated her on because from my research it was a very good buy in that segment. It would not depreciate for example and had a nice trim level as well as great fuel economy.

She proceeded to show me all the things that were similar or identical between her car and mine, and did so in a somewhat aggressive way. One thing after another very quick fire without any prompting or context. I was bemused at the time but in retrospect, obviously what had happened was that she and her husband had gotten a little jealous, explored how her model of Toyota and my model of Lexus were similar in as many aspects as possible, and wanted to let me know how stupid I was for paying extra.

The jealously may have stemmed from the fact that we were previously part of the same larger team but in different roles, but technically at a similar level in the organization hierarchy. However, we had come in from different backgrounds and she may not have appreciated that I had a very different level of experience at senior levels beforehand or what I had been hired to do and was doing, perhaps because I tend to treat people as equals. Not only that, but she was aware that our existing car was pretty ordinary and basic and cost half what her new Toyota cost. So her impression was simply that we were peers as far as the workplace was concerned, or maybe that I was the more junior one. So to see me "promoted" and driving a Lexus a year or so after first meeting, probably bothered her about her own progress.

So there we are, a rather odd story about frugality and cars.

I have another story about the first car I purchased and how that was received at the workplace. Strangely enough similar in terms of a jealous reaction. What can I say, I'm frugal but when it comes to cars, I sometimes spend the money on something nicer with the money I didn't spend at Starbucks or on Avocado toast. Actually edit that, I often eat avocados and eat toast daily.

35

We were touring New Zealand in our converted work van/ camper,
When we stopped in one of the National parks we saw a sign advising us to remove our windshield wipers before proceeding into the park.
WTF?
We proceeded on our way , and after a grand hike we returned to find the birds had removed our wiper-blades for nesting material
Recycling at it's finest.:frowning:
http://www.birdwatchersgeneralstore.com/KeaParrots.htm

650×514 69.5 KB

36

"The main issue of course, is that there is no way to store power for future use ."
Yes, but we're getting there. Tesla battery making prowess both for individual homes and cities will, I believe, be a big boon to the world's energy problems, and this prowess will likely dwarf it car business.

37

Cool.... I hope that we are getting there,
Ancient trees and humble weeds posses the knowledge of storing energy for future use,
If we as a species are so smart, it is about time we put our efforts into storing power,

Cool

38

Old cars
I ran a used suzuki samurai 4WD 2 cycle engine Hard for 10 years,
It was held together with spit and prayers. It ran an extra hard 80.000 miles in the rain forest and jungle, over the original 200,.000 miles the previous land surveyor owner put on it
It had a pretty unique paint job, and I was able to sell it still running well, for more than I paid for it
Today my back couldn't take the jolting, but I still have fond memories of towing a full dressed landrover when it got stuck on the side of a volcano.

39

Sounds like fun. "Consumer Reports" might get a kick out of this info if you could share it with them.:slight_smile:

40

I wish I had a picture';
We were following a full dressed landrover, packed with tourists up the side of of the Turrialba Volcano, when the ruts became too deep and the Landrrover slowly turned turtle. No one was hurt , but it was obvious that the excursion was at an end. Long story short, We righted the vehicle,
with our tiny :" unsafe by consumer reports" vehicle ,and of course being of a narrow trackbase we, were able to take the tourists, all packed in like sardines and on the roof as well, reach the summit, descend into the crater, and subsequently tow the full dressed landrover back to the paved road where the ungainly behometh belonged.